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28 October 2002 @ 02:51 am
Words have an effect.  
I am sick of puritanical bullshit. I am sick of people trying too hard to be loved, and not just being who they are, and thinking for a second that we might love them anyway. I am sick of those who think I will be held hostage to unreasonable demands. I am sick of the disrespect I offer my fellow humans. I am sick of the idea that people can own an idea. I am sick of people who plan their life until their death - when they could die tomorrow. I am sick of people who will not stare their It, their Them, their They, in the face, and call an It an It. I am sick of my empty courage. I am sick of people who want "happy" music all the time. I am sick of people who think this is fiction. I am sick of People. I am sick of people who can't let go. I am sick of people who think this is about them - that everything I write is about them. I am sick of people who didn't do their time riding bitch to earn the respect they think I give them, that I don't. I am sick of people who think that this couldn't be about them. I am sick of people who think love is something you earn, a gift from fate, or a happy ending. I am sick of people who think that love is a noun. I am sick of people who don't understand that cliches are cliches for good reasons. I am sick of speaking out for people at the wayside. I am sick of people who think that they've seen me angry. (You've never seen me angry)

I am sick of listening to myself to myself to myself think.
la femme stygiangunn on October 28th, 2002 05:13 am (UTC)
Insert Slightly Inappropriate Comment Here
Mark Z. Danielewski and I think you're the shit. You're the bomb. You're a brick house. Now, I've got to chase down a minotaur.
atelierlune on October 28th, 2002 07:11 am (UTC)
More Slightly Inappropriate Comments
"He's mighty mighty, lettin' it all hang out.... yeeaaooow...."
chesh on October 28th, 2002 06:36 am (UTC)
Did you know?
Did you know that your brain stores pictures of places you go on a regular basis? That it uses these pictures to fill in the gaps when you are sitting there, talking to someone -- your brain is really only looking at that one person, and maybe processing things in the background that move. It's hard not to focus on a moving object. Did you know that scientists have proven that memory is entirely subjective? There is virtually no objective truth in the world, because we all think of the world in slightly different ways.

Did you know that scientists have proven that very often when we lie, we lie to ourselves as well?

We tell lies to make ourselves or other people to feel better, and if asked about it, we will be unable or unwilling to consciously admit to it.

I could be lying right now, and my conscious brain wouldn't even know it.
atelierlune on October 28th, 2002 07:14 am (UTC)
Deep breaths.
kitkatlj on October 28th, 2002 08:10 am (UTC)
Re: Words have an effect
Despite it all, the world turns out to be an amazingly decent place, don't it?

*sigh* I don't agree with every attitude you're criticizing, but I can see where the statements come from. And one of them got immortalized in an away message of mine (properly attributed, of course).
Josiah Carlsonchouyu_31 on October 28th, 2002 12:34 pm (UTC)
Re: Words have an effect
"immortalized in an away message" That is hardly immortalized. Especially considering that you "don't agree with every attitude you're criticizing".

Taking those things that you agree with and ignoring those that you don't, is what I would consider to be a major problem with how nearly everyone deals with ideas. 'immortalize' what you like, ignore what you don't.

I know other groups who do that. The major world religions. Christians, Muslims, etc., alike, all express those ideas in their 'book' that they fullheartedly (foolheartedly) believe in, and wash over or even ignore those things that they don't agree with. A scant few actually pay attention to what the entire book says (Jews, Ba'hais...).

In my opinion, you cannot hold up a document and actually support it unless you address those things that you disagree with. It would be like me quoting the bible or the koran to support my beliefs, which thankfully I've never done.

I also don't think Doc was addressing the quality of the world. I think he was addressing his frustrations with people he is currently interacting with (which includes himself).
kitkatlj on October 28th, 2002 01:45 pm (UTC)
Re: Words have an effect
Geezo, did you misinterpret me.

"immortalize" was said very, very tongue-in-cheek

just because I don't agree with everything he says doesn't mean I don't have the right to take inspiration from part of it. knowledge is not passed and ideas are not spread throughout human culture by all-or-nothing approaches to learning...that's what innovation is, is taking what you see that you think is right, keeping it, scrapping the rest in your mind, and working from what you kept.

Did I ever say doc was addressing the quality of the world? That was my own statement, partly spawned out of personal frustrations as of late, that I thought would be good for him to keep in mind.

btw, hope you're doing well out in CA! IM me sometime. :-)
Hoc Est Qui Sumus: Totally Ferretdiscoflamingo on October 28th, 2002 03:21 pm (UTC)
Re: Words have an effect
What, specifically, did you take issue with? What did you disagree with?
kitkatlj on October 28th, 2002 05:39 pm (UTC)
Re: Words have an effect
I also hate:
-puritanical bullshit
-people trying too hard to be loved (guilty and sick of being so)
-unreasonable demands
-people thinking LJ rants could be fiction
-people who can't let go
-people who think something about so many types of people couldn't possibly be about them
-people who, after you point it out, still think love is a noun

I'm not bothered by:
-a certain extent of temporary "idea ownership"
-planning life to a certain extent...i could tell you a story that would illustrate why...remind me of tim's mom
-happy music all the time (i don't...but I don't mind people who do)
-people who think a post is about them when it's not (well, not always bothered)
-people who think love is something you earn or a gift (not sure about the happy ending)
-people who think cliches are cliches for good reasons

Can't comment on:
-Whether you disrespect your fellow humans
-don't understand the It thing
-whether you've got empty courage
-the "riding bitch" thing...don't know what it means to you
-not sure what sense of wayside you mean...in society or among your peers...makes a difference to me
-listening to yourself think

Anyway, anything you want my reasons for, just ask.
Josiah Carlson: chouyuchouyu_31 on October 28th, 2002 03:28 pm (UTC)
Re: Words have an effect
It is curious that you use 'inspiration' to refer to your use of the message in an away message for AIM. I personally would not consider a quotation as being inspiration, as inspiration implies production of necessarily NEW ideas or train of thought. So far, I have not observed any new ideas or thought, merely 'immortalized' and 'properly attributed', neither of which implies anything new, especially considering that you've been quoting people for as long as I've known you (a year) in your AIM away messages.

I agree that knowledge is not passed as all-or-nothing, but you misinterpret me. Those things that have been productive in terms of passing ideas along, have included constructive criticism and the synthesis of something new. And like I say in the last paragraph, you have not seemed to produce anything from it. Similarly, you refer to 'innovation', which is not what you are doing. Innovation requires invention, which again requires synthesis. I don't see you creating anything new, so I don't see where this is relevant at all.

You seemed to be addressing the quality of the world here; "Despite it all, the world turns out to be an amazingly decent place, don't it?" That is a statement about the quality of the world, specifically saying that it is a 'decent place'. It seemed to be directly responding to Doc's opinions on what people he interacts with have been doing/saying/thinking. It would be read by 99% of thinking human populous as "Yeah, people suck, but the world is still a decent place, isn't it?"

The main context of the comment you originally left was in response to Doc's livejournal post. There are implied subcontexts which include Doc's life, your life, Macalester life, etc. However, you left no implications that the subcontexts were at all important or influencing your opinion that the world is "amazingly decent place", merely that you thought so. As well, I didn't get the impression from Doc that he thought the world wasn't 'decent', he was saying what he was saying (I'm not going to sum up what he said into a couple sentences, that would be overgeneralization). If you couldn't get what he was saying, ask him about it.
kitkatlj on October 28th, 2002 05:30 pm (UTC)
Re: Words have an effect
First of all...stop criticizing the words I used in that first part, such as immortalize and inspire, because they were all sarcastic...cut me a frickin break here. Just because we don't have the same sense of expression when it comes to sarcasm and humor and may not "get" each others jokes does not mean you need to go into diatribes based on the assumption that I was serious...

I never said I innovated a damn thing. I just said that your statements were silly because of things like innovation...not that I had innovated.

> As well, I didn't get the impression from Doc that he thought the world wasn't 'decent'
Well, I did somewhat...and that's a point we differ on, and you're going to have to deal with me responding based on my impressions, not yours.

I don't see why you had to turn a quick quip of sarcasm and then a comment that was trying to be nice into an argument. IT'S NOT THAT BIG A FUCKING DEAL that I read his posts differently than you and speak differently than you.
Josiah Carlsonchouyu_31 on October 28th, 2002 07:10 pm (UTC)
Re: Words have an effect
My original problem was with the fact that you said you liked (and used) some of Doc's statements, but that you didn't agree with others. As Doc's statement was opinion, your use of his ideas that you liked and ignoring of those you don't was what I was expressing I didn't like. That the higher-ups of both Christian and Muslim religions have been doing this for two millenia, taking those opinions from books that they like, preaching them, and ignoring those they don't. I saw your behavior as an example of a failing of humanity; the ignoring of ideas and opinions that dissent from your own.

You brought up innovation, not me. And in fact, innovation is a completely different sort of thought than what religions have been doing (and what you did). They don't ignore what they don't like, they respond to it (sometimes creating anew). They examine, analyze, and respond to those things they think are incorrect.

Even with your post saying what you do agree with, don't agree with, and even don't understand, you still don't respond or even attempt to analyze those things you don't agree with. That is Doc's fault, "What, specifically, did you take issue with? What did you disagree with?" He should have included a "and why". That would alleviate 1/2 my problem with your original post.

The other 1/2 is personal. I find that quoting people, though fun when you have bulk-quotes pages, is of questionable intent. Through the use of quotes in my last few posts, I should have made you readily aware of the fact that quotes can be used for less than altruistic ideals. That is how I feel about all quotes. That is why I do my best not to quote people, especially little snippets of things I find cute, funny, or inspirational. That is also why I posted the original response; I was expressing in a round about way that I disapproved of your quoting Nick in your AIM away message. It is but a few backspaces from taking credit for the quote itself, in multiple ways.

Not just literally, but that one who quotes well usually gets more attention than the actual quote and the person who is quoted. The exception being the aforementioned bulk-quote pages (as has been done by Cole, Annie and Elias), which seek to show all the funny things people say. The less than 1k of text for away messages aren't enough to even SUGGEST that there is more to these people, that they are more/less funny, or more/less insightful than what the few quotes given suggest, further pushing the attention from those who are quoted to those who quote.
Kalisharikalishari on October 28th, 2002 08:36 pm (UTC)
Nicole Blackman, from "Indictment"
all we want is a head rush all we want is to get out of our skin for a while we have nothing to lose because we don't have anything anything we want anyways we used to hate people now we just make fun of them it's more effective so let's stop arguing and start the car let's quit writing suicide notes on deposit slips let's stop procrastinating and write that book we've been carrying inside for 25 years let's admit that America gets the celebrities she deserves let's stop pretending that we understand jazz let's look at too beautiful people kissing and pretend that one of them is us let's stop saying don't quote me because if no one quotes you then you probably haven't said anything worth saying let's stop pretending that there isn't a difference between being alone and lonely let's stop pretending that this doesn't hurt let's stop praying for someone to save us and start saving ourselves let's stop this and start over let's go out let's keep going...
Josiah Carlsonchouyu_31 on October 28th, 2002 11:02 pm (UTC)
Re: Nicole Blackman, from "Indictment"
That is quite the run-on sentence. I hope that in the movie she paused to take a breath.
Hoc Est Qui Sumus: Mysticdiscoflamingo on October 28th, 2002 11:21 pm (UTC)
Re: Nicole Blackman, from "Indictment"
Is poem, from the book Blood Sugar.

Also, parts of it appear in the KMFDM song, "Dogma."
Josiah Carlsonchouyu_31 on October 28th, 2002 11:46 pm (UTC)
Re: Nicole Blackman, from "Indictment"
My mistake.
Josiah Carlsonchouyu_31 on October 28th, 2002 12:16 pm (UTC)
I'll not comment on my being or not being one of those 'people' *grin*.

Instead I'll say that I agree with you. A couple weeks ago I had been working on a little advice post that never got around to being posted. Kind of funny, but you seem to have addressed my concerns and an equivalent of my advice in less space. Albeit with a negative tone, but one in which there will likely be more response to. No one likes to take advice, but people like to get angry over assaultive statements...at least it gets them to think.

If you'd like, I could post my 'advice' here, at least it would be on-topic and of a similar vein.
Jennyguipago on October 28th, 2002 12:36 pm (UTC)
You know.
I could say something absolutely serious and go through this point by point with you. Because I could. However, I don't have anything to say that you probably don't already know. Therefore I will only say this.

Preach on Brother.


Now it is time to be goofy, because life is just too serious. Too stressful. Be goofy and they'll never know. Did you know that?


lyght on October 28th, 2002 03:36 pm (UTC)
me too.

for some reason Alanis pops into my head, "Thank you, thank you silence!"

Do You Wanna Be Free or You Wanna Be Right?malcubed on October 28th, 2002 06:42 pm (UTC)
I am sick of your rampant abuse of HTML color commands.

Also, mediocrity and our culture's strict attempts to standardize and enforce it.

Other than that, you're wearing your own pants, buddy.

I only listen to happy music: music that makes me happy. (heh, heh, heh)

I've seen you angry. You turned all big and green and shit. It was fucking creepy, man.